Object Editor Data Balancing The Game

Metallbrecher wrote:
lol.... if dh is there with 100 agi and 2500 hp and u with bm with 80 agi and 1500 hp but u have 100 creeps more...... u loose equal how skilled u are...... dh evasion sucks heavy (40% is way too high... i would prefer 30% for better balancing or to make it not stuckable with sword cuz sword (20) + skill (40) = 60% evasion + 15% crit double dmg...)

You keep aiming at a mid/late game situation. Also, your example of stats are strange. The situation you describe can never appear. You have 100 creeps more but still he has got more agility and hp? Sounds very illogical. Sure stats does matter, but due to skill you gain those stats in the first place. How good your stats are in the mid and late game is all in your hands. If you did not play good enough, you can see the result of it. If Dh had better stats than you, means he did something good. I don't agree that he is overpowered or needs to be changed just because one hero can't beat him. You just need to take him out as fast as you can and be creative. Especially Bm vs Dh, Bm has the short end of the stick in the start/mid game.

Yes Metal, Dh is stronger than Bm. It's meant to be. Certain things you just have to accept.

Complexity wrote:

Metallbrecher wrote:
lol.... if dh is there with 100 agi and 2500 hp and u with bm with 80 agi and 1500 hp but u have 100 creeps more...... u loose equal how skilled u are...... dh evasion sucks heavy (40% is way too high... i would prefer 30% for better balancing or to make it not stuckable with sword cuz sword (20) + skill (40) = 60% evasion + 15% crit double dmg...)

 You keep aiming at a mid/late game situation. Also, your example of stats are strange. The situation you describe can never appear. You have 100 creeps more but still he has got more agility and hp? Sounds very illogical. Sure stats does matter, but due to skill you gain those stats in the first place. How good your stats are in the mid and late game is all in your hands. If you did not play good enough, you can see the result of it. If Dh had better stats than you, means he did something good. I don't agree that he is overpowered or needs to be changed just because one hero can't beat him. You just need to take him out as fast as you can and be creative. Especially Bm vs Dh, Bm has the short end of the stick in the start/mid game.

Yes Metal, Dh is stronger than Bm. It's meant to be. Certain things you just have to accept.

yes u have less hp and agility with bm with 100 creeps more still.... believe me... i saw so many games where that happend every time..... and bm has this problem vs nearly every agi.... (just imagine vs potm dmg....) just imagine... 100 creeps means about 4000 gold.... 950 gold for 5 agi and 900 gold for 250 hp... and every agi gets per lvl more agi and strengh than bm... he gets so useless in middle/late game even he is supercreept...

As i said best solution is to make +1 to all stats per level to all heroes, ofc they can became little bit weak, but since you can creep and kill you get lots of gold. I don't see why heroes like demon hunter blademaster should have strength boost. If all heroes gain + 1 agility/intelligence/strength that can make overcomes and bring funy moments. Also yesterday i saw that non agility based heroes no matter how many agility he had attack speed is -0.48(boots of Quel'Thalas is better than glove of speed. With glove of speed i got -0.46 attack speed). Agility 378+30. Strength 700+72(Arthas my self). We just played 3x3 in ubermode. Warden(milan) with 170 agility had -0.79 attack speed. Remember that 1.00 value of the tool that i posted screen shots displays attack speed. So your hero attack every -0.79 hundredths/thousandths. I think for non-based agility heroes their attack speed will grow very slowly than agility heroes, however agility stats is great, hudge boost of it - hudge percent of damage reduction. I've reach 85% of damage reduction and Tauren Chieftain had like 670+73 str level 100 and at end he can't harm me. I guess thats explains why agility heroes have better chance to purge with orb of lightings than non agility based heroes. I remember with archimage i had 260+30 agility and after 15-20 hits it never purged hero. Its because his attack speed is weaker than agility heroes, those who don't know purge chance its 7% to hit heroes and i think 30-40% to hit summons. Sadly that only horde have antidote against demon hunter - Death and Decay + stuns. While alliance don't have antidote vs Gromm Hellscream. Mk bash to gromm it has low % to bash him due his evasion, and in the end agility wins(1v1) depends on stats ofc.

Sry for my english, suffer always said learn english before post ^^

EddieBG wrote:As i said best solution is to make +1 to all stats per level to all heroes, ofc they can became little bit weak, but since you can creep and kill you get lots of gold. I don't see why heroes like demon hunter blademaster should have strength boost. If all heroes gain + 1 agility/intelligence/strength that can make overcomes and bring funy moments. Also yesterday i saw that non agility based heroes no matter how many agility he had attack speed is -0.48(boots of Quel'Thalas is better than glove of speed. With glove of speed i got -0.46 attack speed). Agility 378+30. Strength 700+72(Arthas my self). We just played 3x3 in ubermode. Warden(milan) with 170 agility had -0.79 attack speed. Remember that 1.00 value of the tool that i posted screen shots displays attack speed. So your hero attack every -0.79 hundredths/thousandths. I think for non-based agility heroes their attack speed will grow very slowly than agility heroes, however agility stats is great, hudge boost of it - hudge percent of damage reduction. I've reach 85% of damage reduction and Tauren Chieftain had like 670+73 str level 100 and at end he can't harm me. I guess thats explains why agility heroes have better chance to purge with orb of lightings than non agility based heroes. I remember with archimage i had 260+30 agility and after 15-20 hits it never purged hero. Its because his attack speed is weaker than agility heroes, those who don't know purge chance its 7% to hit heroes and i think 30-40% to hit summons. Sadly that only horde have antidote against demon hunter - Death and Decay + stuns. While alliance don't have antidote vs Gromm Hellscream. Mk bash to gromm it has low % to bash him due his evasion, and in the end agility wins(1v1) depends on stats ofc.

Sry for my english, suffer always said learn english before post ^^

As long as it is understandable I don't mind. Also, could you please stop writing walls of text and use aligns? It's very difficult to read every detail in your walls of text.

I won't even bother to argue with you about this, you know my opinion. I think the things you want to fix are fine how they are. All those percentages, I'm quite sure that nobody cares about the exact attack speed of a hero.

EddieBG wrote:As i said best solution is to make +1 to all stats per level to all heroes, ofc they can became little bit weak, but since you can creep and kill you get lots of gold. I don't see why heroes like demon hunter blademaster should have strength boost. If all heroes gain + 1 agility/intelligence/strength that can make overcomes and bring funy moments.

maybe interesting but it must try out ; or give 2agi/1intel/1str for agi heroe, 1agi/2intel/1str for intel heroe and 1agi/1intel/2str for str heroe. to see

EddieBG wrote:Sadly that only horde have antidote against demon hunter - Death and Decay + stuns. While alliance don't have antidote vs Gromm Hellscream. Mk bash to gromm it has low % to bash him due his evasion, and in the end agility wins(1v1) depends on stats ofc.

I remember one game where I had Gromm and ddeathlordd MK and I lost in 1v1 because his bash very often even with my dodge... he had 2 gloves of speed and as many creep as me but more kill... ^^ but I was surprised by that even if it was only one game

Well, i think kills was important, thats why he win. But 2 agility to hero is to much imo. I think that at the moment agility heroes gain 2 agility per level.

P.S well if someone wonder why he cannot purge with non agility hero even with 200 agility, at least i explained. Suff you still play hna?

EddieBG wrote:Well, i think kills was important, thats why he win. But 2 agility to hero is to much imo. I think that at the moment agility heroes gain 2 agility per level.

depends on what hero u have... bm get 2 (sometimes 3, but 90% only 2), potm and dh 3, and wd and highelv/grim 2-3 (python i dunno and ninja is just useless so i dont mind him...)

Scylla wrote:he had 2 gloves of speed

lol gloves can't be combined , they are like orbs xd dd !! 

yugan wrote:

Scylla wrote:he had 2 gloves of speed

lol gloves can't be combined , they are like orbs xd dd !! 

seriously ? if it's true, I didn't know too

Scylla wrote:

yugan wrote:

Scylla wrote:he had 2 gloves of speed

lol gloves can't be combined , they are like orbs xd dd !! 

seriously ? if it's true, I didn't know too

they can be combined.... attack speed increases i saw it..... so yugi u need to learn =P

Metallbrecher wrote:

Scylla wrote:

yugan wrote:

Scylla wrote:he had 2 gloves of speed

lol gloves can't be combined , they are like orbs xd dd !! 

seriously ? if it's true, I didn't know too

they can be combined.... attack speed increases i saw it..... so yugi u need to learn =P

phew... ok ! thx a lot. I was sure

just try to buy 6 gloves on bm...u won't see any change..^^

yugan wrote:just try to buy 6 gloves on bm...u won't see any change..^^

I think you don't see anything because attack speed is too high you can't see that (with your eyes), but the attack speed is better  

Scylla wrote:

yugan wrote:just try to buy 6 gloves on bm...u won't see any change..^^

I think you don't see anything because attack speed is too high you can't see that (with your eyes), but the attack speed is better  

yep cuz if u have nice tool to see attackspeed like ed or me (who got it from ed) u see that loves stack^^

Metallbrecher wrote:

Scylla wrote:

yugan wrote:just try to buy 6 gloves on bm...u won't see any change..^^

I think you don't see anything because attack speed is too high you can't see that (with your eyes), but the attack speed is better  

yep cuz if u have nice tool to see attackspeed like ed or me (who got it from ed) u see that loves stack^^

and of how much? i don't think it will be enough to waste more then 1 items slot...anyway 1 glove is almost useless, and if u want buy more..well your choice..

yugan wrote:anyway 1 glove is almost useless, and if u want buy more

useless ? why ? I prefer to buy 1 glove than 1 agi boot in late game (best attack speed)

Guys try to keep at least this thread clean.
I don't want good post being flooded by troll war like on other topics on the forum :p

Eddie : I think your idea of +1/1/1 stats per level isn't really good. I would prefer +2/1/1 (+2 to the main hero stat). But even with that, we will have to rebalance the ENTIRE game. Which is a complete NO in my opinion since a bunch of stuff are well balanced a the moment and it took some long/hard work.

Metallbrecher wrote:

StiFleR01 wrote:I agree with 2 points :
- activate/disactive farseer mana feedback attacks like archimonde is a good idea
- fix ninja wave

About dh and bm,imo no one of these 2 heroes shoudl be fixed at the moment, except dh bug

and alchi bug^^
i aggree that dh shouldnt be made weaker cuz u need some skill to play him, but bm could get a bit more stats boost because he looses vs every agi in 1vs1 (only not vs ninja cuz ninja is as useless as milan^^) when both players are pro and rest-combo is good for both

iirc Cain or someone else said that dh bug can't be fixed. So alchi, bloodmage or other things involving bolt and some kind of transformation can't either.

Maybe i should pm Cain about the 2 points that we agree at the moment so when he have time and motivation he can try to fix this :
- activate/desactivate farseer's feedback
- make ninja's wave like python's one

On the other stuff we still seems to desagree on what to buff nerf or not, unless i forgot something (which is possible with the recent floods)

Make ninja and python warrior same large (clickable) as other heroes.

Metallbrecher wrote:oh rly??? do u know the stats boost of bm and of dh???
dh gets 2-3 strengh, 3 agility and 1-2 int per lvl..... while bm gets 1 strengh!!! 1-3 agility and 1 int per lvl.... as u see dh gets more agi more hp.... bm can have 200 creeps more than dh and dont have a chance cuz he gets nearly no statsboost..... i would prefer if he just gets like dh 3 agi every lvl until sort of lvl 25..... and dh hp boost is just awesome.... u just need maybe to buy 1 time +250 hp tomb and then only agi while bm needs hp hp hp hp hp or he dies

Clearly you don't know the stats either.
Bm gets 1,5 agi per level, 2 strength per level and 1.8 int per level. It's not a big difference, and dh needs to get a bit more increased stats.
It's way easier to play with bm.

Metallbrecher wrote:Well, i think kills was important, thats why he win. But 2 agility to hero is to much imo. I think that at the moment agility heroes gain 2 agility per level.
depends on what hero u have... bm get 2 (sometimes 3, but 90% only 2), potm and dh 3, and wd and highelv/grim 2-3 (python i dunno and ninja is just useless so i dont mind him...)

Uhm, very wrong.
All agi heroes get from 1,5 - 1,75 agi per level.

How about Demon Hunter/Gromm Hellscream  Evasion from 40% to 30-35%? And balance all heroes attack(especially Alchemist) and attack speed in same values, but depend on hero base stats. Example: Strength heroes should have attack speed of 2.20 sec which is average attack normally, sure no need to make all heroes with exact stats. Intelligence can be like 2.10-2.15 attack speed. Agility heroes to have attack speed like 1.90-2.00. Demon Hunter has the best attack speed on level 1(I'm not sure how much its his attack speed without amulet, but with it he have attack speed of 1.14 on 1-3 level). Also make strength heroes to get 2 strength per level and level. Agility are fine 1,75 agility is fair, about strength if you say that its 1.75 its fine. 2 levels dig = 3.50 strength, while most of people including me though that Demon Hunter gets 2 strength per each level(same should count for intelligence. I haven't look how much strength per level they gain) Its fair that strength heroes gets only 1 intelligence per level at least i hope they gain 1 intelligence. About new heroes, there is so much work to pick model and abilities, I'm afraid Cain don't have that much time to spend even for object data. And last 2 questions. How you can fix bot lag? Is it bot lagging or or some trigger error makes this lag? Most of players gets nervous while they die by lag. And will you increase selection size of the Ninja, so she can be targeted not that hard with a target abilities like Chain Lighting/Hex/ or any kind of target type ability. Please excuse my English. I've tried to make it understandable.

Cain wrote:

Metallbrecher wrote:oh rly??? do u know the stats boost of bm and of dh???
dh gets 2-3 strengh, 3 agility and 1-2 int per lvl..... while bm gets 1 strengh!!! 1-3 agility and 1 int per lvl.... as u see dh gets more agi more hp.... bm can have 200 creeps more than dh and dont have a chance cuz he gets nearly no statsboost..... i would prefer if he just gets like dh 3 agi every lvl until sort of lvl 25..... and dh hp boost is just awesome.... u just need maybe to buy 1 time +250 hp tomb and then only agi while bm needs hp hp hp hp hp or he dies

Clearly you don't know the stats either.
Bm gets 1,5 agi per level, 2 strength per level and 1.8 int per level. It's not a big difference, and dh needs to get a bit more increased stats.
It's way easier to play with bm.

lol.... and how can it be then that if bm has +200 creeps more and less stats??.... if 2 players with same skillness play bm vs dh, dh wins in 99 of 100 games...

Metallbrecher wrote:
lol.... and how can it be then that if bm has +200 creeps more and less stats??.... if 2 players with same skillness play bm vs dh, dh wins in 99 of 100 games...

Perhaps kills and mana burn focus?

Metallbrecher wrote: if 2 players with same skillness play bm vs dh, dh wins in 99 of 100 games...

it's normal imo because dh is the counter of bm. so if you can be better than dh, our team must help you to kill him. but I think also that bm should have a little more hp by lvl.

I think it would be very wrong to make the attack speed the same based on what the main attribute is.
Every hero is different, no need to have it all the same.
They also have different abilities.

I'm not sure about feedback, i think someone looked into it in the past and didn't do it.
I guess that it had a reason why it wasn't done.

To be fair, the bm even starts with one agi more than dh.
Obviously dh gets slightly more hp per level due to being a lot more vulnerable in the start than bm etc.
So i don't know how you get those stats, and besides the bm has a huge advantage in early game over dh.

I'm quite sure that every strength hero gets 3+ strength per level.
And also all int heroes gets 2+ strength per level, while they get 3+ int per level.
So i'm quite sure the attribute gain is fine, not sure why you talk about other values.

Cain wrote:I think it would be very wrong to make the attack speed the same based on what the main attribute is.
Every hero is different, no need to have it all the same.
They also have different abilities.

I'm not sure about feedback, i think someone looked into it in the past and didn't do it.
I guess that it had a reason why it wasn't done.

To be fair, the bm even starts with one agi more than dh.
Obviously dh gets slightly more hp per level due to being a lot more vulnerable in the start than bm etc.
So i don't know how you get those stats, and besides the bm has a huge advantage in early game over dh.

I'm quite sure that every strength hero gets 3+ strength per level.O
And also all int heroes gets 2+ strength per level, while they get 3+ int per level.
So i'm quite sure the attribute gain is fine, not sure why you talk about other values.

Ok but if possible fix alchemist attack value?