Object Editor Data Balancing The Game

Alchi is very slow in the start though? Takes a long time before he is any good to my experience.
I can't really see why it needs to be changed.

bm was once a rly nice hero....

but now u can only kill with him is u are rly pro and enemies are rly noobs/or many stuns vs 0 heal... then it is possible... other ways he is jsut useless....

Metallbrecher wrote:bm was once a rly nice hero....

but now u can only kill with him is u are rly pro and enemies are rly noobs/or many stuns vs 0 heal... then it is possible... other ways he is jsut useless....

What has changed since then?
Or maybe you should play a bit more careful?

i was mean to increase agility of Alchemist and reduce little his atttack speed but fix his damage values

Cain wrote:

Metallbrecher wrote:bm was once a rly nice hero....

but now u can only kill with him is u are rly pro and enemies are rly noobs/or many stuns vs 0 heal... then it is possible... other ways he is jsut useless....

What has changed since then?
Or maybe you should play a bit more careful?

yes... playing careful.... u have 1k hp at lvl 15 and run back every 3 sec cuz no hp, or u buy hp and have no agi = no attack..... in both ways useless

Cain wrote:I'm not sure about feedback, i think someone looked into it in the past and didn't do it.
I guess that it had a reason why it wasn't done.

Imo he probably just forgot. There is no reason why we can't activate/desactivate feedback. The only thing that happend at the moment is prevent people to play it because your mates will ask you to use a frost/ganja/slow orb when someones tries to back.
If he could activate/desactivate it he could use feedback while people creep to annoy agi (or while agi is stunned) and when agi backs he desactivate it to use his orb like any other ranger would do.

About BM in early game, of course he can creep like hell. But around 15min (when the wards starts to arrive) it start to become hell. Also it depend of both combo, when you play vs a healed DH he can creep all day and if you come to close he rapes your mana
Last game i played bm, i played vs 3 stunners str, 2 gems, early wards and shackles.
I was best creeper in game even if it was impossible to creep on 1v1 vs Abomination that had less creeps than me but raped me. I even had to use tornado to avoid his ulti lol.

Also if DH counters BM. What does BM counters ? I don't think he counters any agi. I don't say it's a bad hero, bm is really awesome agi. I love his playstyle.
But like Scylla imo, he should have just a bit more hp per level (and i think metal and eddie would agree).

Btw i say it again because it was pointed out by shackleman but Ninja and Python should be as clickable as other heroes. Probably just a misstake in some vallues but i know plenty of people (including me) that missclick this hero while trying to focus or heal him.

Oh and, didn't know if you saw the previous page Cain but both ninja heroes should have the same wave : the python one, that works way better.

agree on everything pan   

I still can't believe that you guys are actually complaining and bitching about one of the greatest heroes in the classic game and definitely a strong agility hero in H&A. Each agility hero (except for the ninja heroes) are in my opinion perfect how they are. If I talk about Bm, I fought a decent player with Bm just a few days ago and believe me. Once bm has level advantages and decent gold he becomes an unbeatable beast. Mirrors, decent hp, high attack speed, surrounds and critical strikes. It's hell.

I agree with you, creeping with an agility hero can be tough sometimes especially with Bm. But that counts for every agility hero. Some games are tougher than the other. Bm is a squishy hero, he isn't made to take a lot of damage. That's why you need to take care with him and play him smoothly. I think giving him more hp would be a bad thing to do. Let's say he doesn't have any problems with creeping and killing heroes, what will happen then? He will become too strong to my taste.

In all those years I've been playing H&A I never ever had any problem with bm based at stats. It's a little weird that suddenly when Ed talks about numbers and stuff you start out of nowhere with your complains about the Bm. While you play this game for let's say 3 years? Even longer?

Just my two cents.

It's not really about the values, it's more to do about the model files of the heroes.
It's a bit more tricky adding a activate and deactivate to the feedback i suppose, which is why it was skipped.

And it's not always as easy as just copying the ability of another hero to the other, it has to look right as well.
The projectile isn't always that easy to change.

To be fair.. every 10 levels then dh gets 75 more hp than bm, not really a big deal.
And surely dh needs it a lot more.

Cain wrote:It's not really about the values, it's more to do about the model files of the heroes.
It's a bit more tricky adding a activate and deactivate to the feedback i suppose, which is why it was skipped.

The problem remains though. I played Far seer last Thursday trying out the feed back spell, the damage it does is almost next to nothing. Perhaps buff it in some way or give him a new spell.

It only does damage on units which has mana, and it's 55 damage at level 10.
Which is pretty much the same as arrows.

Cain wrote:It only does damage on units which has mana, and it's 55 damage at level 10.
Which is pretty much the same as arrows.

Yes, but without a slow effect. It's hard to actually kill heroes with feedback since it doesn't slow enemies and they just run away. In my opinion that's where the spell is all about. To deal decent amount of damage to heroes and reduce their mana. Just as you said, the feedback isn't really meant to kill creeps. It's more to focus heroes.

well you cant just skill feedback with any combo, but once in a while if you have decent amount slowing orb, then feedback is nice. I like it as it is now.
Ofc its hard to killa hero with it as you chase him solo, but with one frost one ganja, its really annoying. And I really like the dmg it had, how ever u cant afford to be underlvled if u go for feedback.

Far Seer always can make warden/Elf warrior/Mk or any melee hero. Example Lich, Beastmaster, Nether Mage, Far Seer, Tauren Chieftain or Crypt Lord. Silence always and stun + nova and feedback, then if alliance have batman/Mountain King they became useless hero.Except Mountain King Avatar only then he can use his stun clap, but normaly hardly to reach intelligence, while moostly all chase him, I'm not sure but i think feedback works on Avatar, i haven't test it. But versus that combo it will be very hard for The Allliance. Because all know how will end. Impale lv 5-7 level and War Stomp lv 7-8 then Death and Decay will kill moost of heroes. I have to say it but Alliance don't have that kind type of ulty while it drains so much hp during stuns. Without Druid's Divine Protection its very hard to conquer that kind of combo. Just imagine if tc beast lich fs and sh? Early hero focus. I'm sure in first 20-30 min horde will get 8-12 kills. Especially if The Alliance wanted to hunt always Shadow Hunter. If players are good Shadow hunter will be unreachable, since all heroes will protect him. Mostly horde had higher chance of wining while they have lich and high stuns with players who know how to play good, no matter how good u are and your team is, if stuns +nova and death and decay don't fail result like always wipeout Alliance... Alliance have small chance to win ony when they have druid, but vs dread lord he will in fall sleep. This is so annoying. Can you reduce its duratation at lv 10? I think hero sleeps for over 30 seconds ...

About Blademaster i have to say that this hero should not be touched, Totaly agree with Suffer, if he gets more hp what you can do later to stop him? With Horde you can use stuns + silence and Death and Decay but with alliance what u can do only max lv stuns like bolt/stomp rockets. Blademaster can be good in the hands of advanced player and weak in the hands of a average/weak player. This counts for all heroes. Sure mana burn is annoying, but thats a hero spell, blademaster also have annoying ability called wind walk. Dh can't became invisible while hes close vs stunners, while bm can evade mk bolt or even when hes stunned most of times hes invisible, and later wind walk lv 10 hes un reachable. Dh is good but he just can't win vs high stuns and death and decay. Excuse my english, i don't know when to use punctuation in English Language. That's why most of guys don't understand what i'm trying to post.

EddieBG wrote: Just imagine if tc beast lich fs and sh? Early hero focus. I'm sure in first 20-30 min horde will get 8-12 kills. Especially if The Alliance wanted to hunt always Shadow Hunter. If players are good Shadow hunter will be unreachable, since all heroes will protect him. Mostly horde had higher chance of wining while they have lich and high stuns with players who know how to play good, no matter how good u are and your team is, if stuns +nova and death and decay don't fail result like always wipeout Alliance... Alliance have small chance to win ony when they have druid, but vs dread lord he will in fall sleep. This is so annoying. Can you reduce its duratation at lv 10? I think hero sleeps for over 30 seconds ...

It's the same case as with the Shadow Hunter. Druid should be unreachable and should only join the battle field when it's really needed. If Dreadlord used sleep on you there is always a chance that a teammate wakes you up. Don't forget that artillery might accidentally wake you up as well. Due to the AoE.

I don't know but I never had any problems with Sleep, it was always pretty funny. The lvl10 sleep range is really nice. I remember Buebchen trolling with it very often.^^

Complexity wrote:It's the same case as with the Shadow Hunter. Druid should be unreachable and should only join the battle field when it's really needed. If Dreadlord used sleep on you there is always a chance that a teammate wakes you up. Don't forget that artillery might accidentally wake you up as well. Due to the AoE.

I don't know but I never had any problems with Sleep, it was always pretty funny. The lvl10 sleep range is really nice. I remember Buebchen trolling with it very often.^^

Range is fine, but duratation is high and anyone can trolling with it. About druid however hes not so unreachable as you said, unless he stay under Divine Protection, enemies awaiting spell duratation and can reach him. While shadow hunter, can be reached only while he use ulty closer, but when he using it far away all units are protected and blocking the way and you couldn't reach him unless you're blademaster/warde/ninja then what u can do? Attack him? His allies will always immediately will go back and help him to survive, thats why mostly alliance fail to slay him, when his allies had stuns. His AoE is so long like 1000 should be like 850-900 at level 6. Well there is some dissagreement because druid can protect him self but only for 14 seconds i think. That's the difference between both of them 1 can protect him self and allies for 14-16 sec and not so high AoE, while other cannot protect himself, but he can protect everyone for greater duratation and longer AoE. I think maybe for 30-40 seconds. Have to check deprotected version.
Problem about sleep is that hero became invulnerable for short time, and u can't wake him fast, when u do it normaly Inferno fall in the sky and he got stunned. This invulnerable bug can't be fixed its wc3 bug like dh ulty.

Eddie : Your english is fine, don't worry. But just maybe, try to structurate a bit more your posts with spaces beetween your ideas (like you did with farseer and blademaster 2 posts ago, that was good).
When a post is clear it's easier to read even if your english isn't that great. That's why i try to have clean posts :)

Far Seer's feedback is good in some case. Like the exemple that Eddie said : when you have stunners in your side and vs a lot of str or agi (str/agi = low mana).
I'm myself, a feedback player since long ago but i only play it vs mass str and if we have at least 2 stuns and 2 range. Otherwise, i won't drain enough mana to be annoying and since i can't slow because i can't get an orb i need to be sure that my feedback will be annoying.
This in mind, when i commit to feedback, i fully commit -> my 3rd item is glove and then i buy +5 agi tomes way more early than i use to with any non-ahi hero. Also, i skill this spell as my main.
If feedback could be activate/desactivate i will skill/play my hero way more "normal" and still be annoying when i need. But since cain said this :

Cain wrote:It's not really about the values, it's more to do about the model files of the heroes.
It's a bit more tricky adding a activate and deactivate to the feedback i suppose, which is why it was skipped.

And it's not always as easy as just copying the ability of another hero to the other, it has to look right as well.
The projectile isn't always that easy to change.

I guess it won't happend sadly. Also i tart around a bit with the StarCraft II editor which is just a more evoluate version of the WarCraft III one. And i can tell that yes, some things that are possible and simple to change aren't always even if the spell/stuff look like a lot to an other spell/stuff that you had no trouble to customise (well at least, for a beginner like me because when i see some custom maps on SC2... holy shit O_o).
I know Cain that you supose that it's not possible but, if you fix/change some stuff in the future (when you'll have time of course) can you just confirm us this about the feedback issue ? ^^

Complexity wrote:

Cain wrote:It's not really about the values, it's more to do about the model files of the heroes.
It's a bit more tricky adding a activate and deactivate to the feedback i suppose, which is why it was skipped.

The problem remains though. I played Far seer last Thursday trying out the feed back spell, the damage it does is almost next to nothing. Perhaps buff it in some way or give him a new spell.

I actually fear to ask this but maybe a new spell wouldn't be bad.
Well thinking about it, the only spell i suggested was about some kind of mana burn (it was for lich back in the day but it would suit farseers even better i guess).
I'll copy/quote myself just in case :

PanStyle wrote:I have maybe an idea but that's a new spell in HnA. It would be like when you cast silence (so an aoe with range) but the effect would be : burn mana in the area (no damage, stun or silence).
I took my inspiration from the EMP for StarCraft II : http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/EMP_Round and the wisp detonation from WarCraft III + brainstormed about values to make it interesting for HnA, imo.
So here is what i suggest :

Name : Mana detonation
Cast type : Area of effect casted with range, instant cast (like silence).
Notes : AoE should be small and increase every level but still be small to force less cast but good ones and not spam like some spells.
Also, cooldown should be huge. To not kill the game or all fights and to force better decision from the lich player.
Effect : Destroy an amout of mana in the area (does 0 hp damage).
Bonus effect : Reveal invisible units that got hit by the spell for a short time.


I think this would give a new interesting dynamic to the game and to the lich farseer's gameplay.

Like i said, this skill isn't about to kill the entire mana everytime. That's why the AoE should be small to force good cast and that the cooldown should be HUGE.
Last thing, there is like 2 types of gameplay with this spell :
- skill it level 2-3 to reveal a bm/warden/potm a short time for exemple and skill the other farseer's skills as main. Also maybe an FS would not buy gem or any reveal item this time.
- skill it level 8-10 to burn mana to a stunner or more if lucky.

Last point : i see here and there "we need new spells" but i see no suggestions :/

Talking about reveal items, i think they should all cost more (in my opinion). Just -5 stats for constant reveal around a hero (the gem at 900 gold) is just a bit too much.
Also, i think those kind of items, makes people micro/care way less, which is a shame. IMO (and i'm sure most will desagree) it should cost 1200 gold. So maybe people will think more than a second before bying one (and 2 gem in a team vs a single bm is pretty "normal" now. It happend to me but i see it happen to a lot of other players. I found this ridiculous).
On the opposite, the reveal ball (550 gold) force a good use of the reveal : When do i cast it ? Where do i cast it ? I'm on cooldown now, i have to care. Still maybe it should cost 50-100 more gold because that's a pretty awesome item. One of my favorite by far because you can save mates just with map vision when you reveal the other side on the map (like a mate is alone at night, we are 4 down, i reveal some path up for 25sec. He's 90% safe for that time).
And of course if those items cost much, ward should cost a bit more too. It's like what, 3 charges for 400 gold (not sure of the vallue of this one so you can correct me).

Also, shackles (i wait for your post on this part ripperman xD) cost way too less. It's like 550 gold for 2 charges ? In late game, one shackles is a kill in 80% of time. People overuse it.
It should be 550 for one charge or 900 for two, in my opinion.

About druid, eddie, the ulti at level 6 is not 14sec long at all. It's way less. It's like 10sec, at most. And versus a good team, if you cast ulti to save yourself and that they are already close to you, you dies anyway.

Sleep : i say it often in game, no matter which side i am ; it's one of the best spell in the game. The range should be lower imo. Duration is okay. Most of the time, if your mates see it and have a brain, they wakes you up and you doesn't waits 20sec sleeping (so i don't mind people "trolling" with it ^^).
Why i think the range is too high ? Because once DL is around level 12-14, if teams are even in stuns/heals. Alliance can't creep vs DL (unless they have mass waves). At some point, attacking DL with a range unit is impossible because he can sleep you with the sleep range.
To finish about sleep, why i love this spell and that i think he's very strong : it's an amazing spell for offense and defence. Sleep a healer, sleep a stunner, create oportunities. This spell really add some spice in HnA. But again, range is too high and it kind of kills the games sometimes.

Blademaster : None seems to agree, some thinks that he needs a buff, some thinks that he's fine. I'll stop playing BM for now and observe how my mates plays it in differents situations. Maybe it'll give my a different opinion and point of view :)

Hmm i don't think that i forgot something. Sorry for the wall :D

I'd like to suggest that repairing towers and buildings should only cost wood not gold. People barely use it anymore except to buy Bats. Would be nice.

Cool, but still is not solution for massive wood resources. This lag during game is bot fault? Hope soon to be fixed. So annoying when lag appers and somebody diying.

EddieBG wrote: This lag during game is bot fault? Hope soon to be fixed. So annoying when lag appers and somebody diying.

true its like bumps on the road

Noone answered at my wall of doom/text ? Well that sucks :<

Btw wood only for repear towers ? I like that. Maybe it would help vs early "lame" with dk's ulti.

Also on an other and more easy topic, sounds : some new ones ?
-give needs to be back
Also we could add -surprise for this sound :


It would suits well when sneaky kills happend

Also wondering if ranger's multishot lag can be fixed.

haha that sound whould be nice  

Cain fix pala/dk ulty and increase staff of dispell dmg. Its so annoying when you get surrounded by invulnerable units and u can't do anything. Staff of Negation costs 1600 gold and can't even dispel single footman grunt. It should at least dispel 1 knight/tauren.